Ep. 5: Risk & What We Can’t Lose with Brendan Martin
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Join host Jessica Norwood in this special episode as she gives you a sneak peek into her new book, "Believe in You Money: What Would It Look Like if the Economy Loved Black People?" Rather than relying solely on benevolence or philanthropy, the conversation delves into a concept of reparations that challenges the notion of one-time payments. Instead it emphasizes business ownership and productive capital that underscores the need for economic independence alongside systemic change. This thought-provoking conversation challenges the status quo by inviting listeners to reimagine risk, reshape power structures, and invest in black joy as a means to create an economy that actually supports historically marginalized communities for the long term. Discover how cooperative economics and the Seed Commons network are reshaping the way we think about communities, ownership, and investment. This episode is a must-listen for entrepreneurs, wealth movers, and anyone ready to challenge our unjust status quo and embrace systems change. Don't forget to grab a copy of Jessica's new book for yourself and a friend. It's time to rewrite the rules and create an economy that truly loves black people. Join the conversation and be part of building a more inclusive future.
Highlights:
• Believe In You Money: Jessica introduces her new book, "Believe In You Money: What Would It Look Like If the Economy Loved Black People?" She discusses her desire to see a new type of capital being given and invested in black entrepreneurs and innovators. The book explores the concept of "believe in you money" as a form of capital that recognizes the value, success, and ideas of black individuals in the economy. It aims to be long-term, patient, and anti-racist, acknowledging the historical challenges faced by black people and advocating for reparative actions.
• Seed Commons and Cooperative Economics: Jessica and Brendan discuss the role of cooperative economics in reimagining risk and capitalization. Seed Commons is a national network of non-extractive loan funds that bring big finance under community control. The network focuses on supporting local cooperative businesses, particularly in marginalized communities that have faced systemic discrimination and economic challenges. They aim to distribute power, build wealth, and challenge inequality through solidarity economics.
• Racial Bias in Risk Assessment: Jessica and Brendan describe the inherent racial bias present in risk assessment, particularly in financial systems. They highlight how factors like credit scores, which are based on historical financial information, can perpetuate discriminatory practices. The discussion challenges the assumptions that black entrepreneurs are riskier to work with and emphasizes the need for empowering black communities to experiment, grow, and pivot without the fear of failure or shame. They argue that risk assessment should be reevaluated to align with a more inclusive and equitable understanding of what is sacred, considering the people, land, culture, and spirituality of Afro-indigenous communities.
• Investing in Black Joy: The conversation highlights the experiences of workers who became owners in a cooperative factory. It captures their sense of liberation and the realization of their own capabilities. By becoming owners, they overcame the psychological barriers that society had imposed on them, realizing their own power and potential.
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Brendan founded The Working World in 2004 when he and Avi Lewis traveled to Buenos Aires to pitch the idea of a solidarity finance institution for recovered factories to a group of Argentinean friends. Initially involved in all aspects of the organization, he now focuses mostly on fundraising, marketing, and strategic planning. In 2015, Brendan helped to launch the Seed Commons network, which builds upon the successful model of The Working World. Brendan is an Ashoka fellow and two-time Ashoka Globalizer, serves on the board of the Southern Reparations Loan Fund, the New Economy Project, California Harvesters farmworker cooperative, Brooklyn Stone and Tile cooperative, and serves as key technical support to New Era Windows.
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People who are less powerful often are more extracted from and when you get to like United States of America and the way that the black populations of our country have been treated since slavery. And since the exact same history of extraction tracks with the ways in which power has been used against black populations and brown populations, the blessed power you've had in our society, the more you've been extracted from, and often at the hands of capital. So reversing that relationship with capital is the first step in our country towards changing the relationship black people have with the rest of the economy and society. You ready, we get down to business investing in existence, shifting from a system steeped in extraction that steady sapping off peoples and planet to cash in slashing, widening gaps in our access to land wealth, peace, satisfaction. Imagine basing relations on more than transactions. It's time for new pathways, and we need to shape them through our inner landscapes, our relations, our approach, our dedication, we're on the road to repair as a commitment to transformation. Welcome to the road to repair a podcast exploring our journey out of a business as usual economy to work, collective healing and liberation. We are your co hosts, Andrew X, Jessica Norwood. And I'm dickish, guy, and gar, and we're very excited for this conversation. I'm Jessica Norwood. And I am your host for this episode. And this one is a really special one. Because I'm giving you a sneak peek into my new book, believing you money. What would it look like if the economy loved black people, and it's being published by Berrett Koehler, shout out to BK, you can order a copy of this book by going to my website, Jessica norwood.com. Or you can go to the podcast page at the road to repair.com. And you can find more information there as well. And no matter when you're listening to this podcast, you can either pre order or you could be ordering either way will work for me, I do hope you get a chance to check it out. Believe in you money. What would it look like if the economy love black people, is really my heart's desire to see a new type of capital being given and being invested in black entrepreneurs and black innovators. And I'm thinking this is about believing you money. This is the kind of money that says, I see you, I believe in you, your work your success, your ideas matter to this economy to this community. And we want to put the kind of capital behind you that says that, for me that's not extractive, it's long term and patient, and it is absolutely anti racist. It understands the history that black people have faced in this country, and it is doing the repair work. So that's believing you money, what would it look like if the economy loved black people? And in that book, I had the opportunity of interviewing a few wisdom keepers. And, you know, folks who are just at the epicenter of these questions, and one of those people happens to be Brendan Martin. And that's what you're going to hear from today. Brendan and I talked about for the book, we talked about what it meant to be changing the way that we understand risk, and how a fundamental reexamination of risks can actually move us closer to creating an economy that loves black people. Now, I want you to do me another favor here. Not only do I want you to listen to this episode, I want you to go through the episode log and find the complimentary episode with Sonya Renee Taylor, because that one and this one together, yo chef's kiss you hear me ah excellence do listen to both of them. And obviously buy the book and buy the book for friend. And if you know people who are wealth polders wealth movers or even if you yourself are an entrepreneur and you're trying to figure out why is it that I am rolling this boulder up a hill? I know I need capital but But what am I doing wrong? Read the book and you will realize it ain't you boo. It ain't you? It's the system. And we want to talk about systems change. And we want to talk about how we understand risk. So this episode, we're going to talk to my wonderful dear friend and comrade in the work Brendan Martin. Brendan Martin is founder and director of the working world, a cooperative financial institution and business incubator based in Argentina, Nicaragua and the United States in 2015 Brynden helped to launch the seed Commons Network. work which builds upon the successful model of the working world. Brendan is an Ashoka Fellow and a two time Ashoka globalizer serves on the board of the new economy project. California harvesters, farm worker cooperative, Brooklyn stone and tile cooperative and the southern reparations loan fund and serves as a key technical support to New Era windows. One of the things I really wanted to focus in on with Brendan is this work that he does with seed Commons. And really the work that he's always done by using cooperative business and cooperative economics as a strategy to readjust or reimagine risk. Now, you can imagine here that if we spread the risk out amongst worker owners, all of us have something at stake here, all of us want something similar. And so we imagine that we might de risk some of the things that we might have assumed were riskier, we get more feedback and more information from the people who are actually doing the work that we want to produce, we have a different level of stability. So all of these things, from at least a financing standpoint, should help you to de risk. So I really want to talk about seed Commons. And just the idea of business ownership as a pillar for changing the way that we think about communities changing the way we think about capitalization, ownership, and who gets to own and who gets to be an investor. So seed commons, as I mentioned, is a national network of locally rooted non extractive loan funds. That brings the power of big finance under community control. By taking guidance from the grassroots and sharing capital and resources to support local cooperative businesses. See Commons is building the infrastructure necessary for a truly just democratic and sustainable new economy. See Commons channels, the investments to communities that have faced the brunt of an extractive economy, things like de industrialization and systemic discrimination, making community control finance available to cooperatively owned businesses that create jobs, build wealth and challenge inequality. One of the signature funds is the Southern reparations Loan Fund, which is how I came to know more about the commons. And the goal of it is to build self reliant, resilient, just cooperative solidarity economies in marginalized communities. And let me give you a couple of stats. See, Commons is a cooperative of about 31 organizations all around the country, and they are growing. Anyone who joins one of those 31 organizations also join, see comments. And they can bring this direct connection to capital right into their communities. These cooperatives work to distribute power to those communities to place the capital with local borrowers using non extractive terms. Most of the loans go to worker cooperatives that involve as many workers as possible sometimes, and the current fund size for see Commons is around $50 million. And out of that money, 93% goes to borrowers of color, the majority of whom are black Latinx, and even 99% of those borrowers are even low income. Here's what Brendan says about his work with see comments. I mean, I started this work at seed Commons, which is a provider of capital, we use as non extractive terms, which we could unpack, and we provide capital, not for the benefit of the capital provider, us or those who put a lot of money but for the benefit of those who use it, we certainly talk about if you imagine the infrastructure of capital is like the infrastructure of water. And you know, we have like the reservoir and at least all the pipes that go through the city and eventually get to your sink, and you turn it on. And that's like, there's big piles of money, like a reservoir money, and eventually there's a user of it. And in our system, all the infrastructure that the if you're getting the spigot out of your sink, you know, every bit of infrastructure from where you get the water all the way back to the reservoir, everyone who works along the way, because that's a lot of people, it's financial intermediaries, they all work on behalf of making sure that the provider of money, in this case, the owner of the reservoir, gets as much back as possible. That's their goal. So their goal is they may say to you, you're gonna get water from the sink and kill how much you can get back all the infrastructure that's out there until the end, you get to the end user all works on behalf of the provider of the resource money, not the recipient. And seek Commons is an attempt to be infrastructure, that's doesn't work that way. So we're part of, we can tap maybe even if possible, tap the reservoir directly. We wanted to get hired higher up to where the capital comes from, to tap that so we get the best terms for the borrower possible because that's our job is to make the capital as useful, fruitful, cheap and patient as possible for the borrowers. That's the abstract idea of what we are. What does that mean in practice? We're a cooperative network of 31 organizations around the country we keep growing for Why are we in multiple places were cooperative of those organizations and those different places so that the power distributes out to those organizations. Anyone who joins any organization that joins the Commons is in direct connection to their communities they work in, in representative communities, and they place capital with local borrowers in non extractive terms, we usually do it to worker cooperatives that involve as many workers as possible, sometimes other formations. So we have about $50 million in our loan fund, a lot of work I've done is to raise money, my job and the infrastructure, try to go farther up the plumbing to get as close to the reservoir as possible, get the resources as big and as cheap as possible for those borrowers. So that's what I've been doing. I've been building I mean, I started doing this in small scale in New York. Now I really work for the organizations in the network in different parts of country, they're actually the board and they're my boss. And I'm one of the workers in what is now 33 person team distributing capital for the benefit of the bars. Okay, so as promised, this episode really is about risk. But I wanted to set this up so that you know more about Brynden, you know more about seed Commons, and how they approach this conversation. And that part is going to be really key. Because you might imagine that risk is just a part of what happens when we are assessing investment, or assessing insurance or assessing anything is that you look at, you know, what's the risk here? It seems like a pretty straightforward proposition. But what if I told you that risk, and the way that you think about risk is 100%, baked in racial bias? It is, first of all, one of the pillars of risk assessment is, let's say, the credit score? Well, the credit score is made up of historical financial information. And that information goes pretty far back. But what we know is, is that that historical financial information also has been a part of an insight of discriminatory practices against black people. So if you were redlined, or you were given a higher mortgage, or predatory mortgage, then that kind of information gets put onto your credit score. And it gets you get scored against that over a long period of time. So much so that there is copious amounts of data, I don't have it at my fingertips. But if you read my book, you'll find out data that talks about the fact that there is a disproportionate amount between the credit scores of let's say, older, white Americans, to older black Americans, and that is all about the discrimination, of access to capital discrimination, around pay discrimination, in education, and so forth. And those things get baked into your credit score. So when we say, well, what's your credit score? What we're really doing is actually using that and using the discrimination of the past as a part of the scoring rubric of Are You Too risky or not? So that's one way that I would say like how we think about risk is certainly baked in to a level of bias. When I've been out making deals for black entrepreneurs, I'm often hit with this question that people don't even seem to really be bothered by when they ask. But they say to me to black entrepreneurs really need capital question mark. And then they go into, well, this feels riskier to work with black entrepreneurs, again, a level of bias, because the assumption underneath that is that black entrepreneurs are going to fail more than maybe a white entrepreneur or an Asian entrepreneur. And there is no statistical reason to believe that to be true. In fact, we really do see a lot of success out of black entrepreneurs. And what we want to do is create the scenario where those entrepreneurs don't get this capital and then feel like they can never fail or pivot or, or do anything, that the shame become so great that I got this investment in, and I couldn't have learned anything, I couldn't adjust myself. No, we want to say that empower to other communities, our communities should have the opportunity to experiment, to grow, to pivot, to change, all of those things that we afford any other types of innovation and community. And so again, we're assessing this idea of risk based on these historical story, the storytelling that we have said about who gets to be the innovator who gets to world make who gets to shape the context. state that we live in. And those people tend to not be black and brown people, we tend to think that the titans of industry, they can afford to take risk. I'm actually recording this episode right now, right at the heels of the SV be the Silicon Valley Bank failure and signature bank failure. And this happens maybe cyclically every 15 years or so, because we have accepted a certain amount of risk that can happen amongst the financial industry. But that risk capital can't be available to black and brown creatives, the people who were actually making real things that our communities really need. So it's time for us to get in front of this conversation about risk. And in this episode, we're going to pose a question, one that I actually just think is central to this point of what would it take if an economy love black people? What I think is essential is risk is really about what is sacred risk is about what is sacred to us. And here's my theory. I think that the way that black people, Afro indigenous people think about risk, and what is sacred is very different from a Eurocentric thought about what is sacred? Now, let me say that again, I think that an afro indigenous view of what is sacred is different than what a Eurocentric thought, or framework would be. And we're living inside of a Eurocentric framework. So I feel pretty comfortable in the broad strokes here of saying that what this system thinks is sacred is money. And I think what Afro indigenous people would say is sacred are the people is the land is the culture and the stories, and the ancestry and spirituality of a people. And so when we think about risk, and I say risk is about what is sacred, then for me it becomes what is the real risk here? What are we really risking? By not investing in what we think is really sacred. It's funny, we talk about risk and finance, and everyone sort of knows, we just mean risk to loss of wealth for wealth doesn't matter for maybe 100 people involved in 1000 people involved in a new investment for new factory, but it's just the owners of the capitals whose risk is considered of like, but what if they lose the money? What if it doesn't work, and they put up millions of dollars, even if it's one person who owned it, who owned that millions of dollars, and 1000s of people whose job the risk that we talk about in any financial endeavor like that is about the financial risk, it's just about the loss of assets, we don't talk about the risk to the planet, the risk to the people, the risk to society, we abstract money, things. So it's just about if money is lost, but really, but who owns the money? How much money? Is it the same? If you know I lose a million dollars? Or you know, if 1000 of us lose $1,000? Isn't that a lot more people at risk is why is it in a financial risk? It's the same you just add up the total dollars at risk, not the total number of people one unpacking of this and thinking might fit some of the really good framing you give is it actually involves the concept of sacred because we say risk is about what what can we not lose and dollars end up being what's sacred, everything has to work around dollars, the preservation of capital is what matters most. And so can we avoid bad impacts on the society on people in the village that we're building a factory and only if it doesn't cost more? Rather than people being the the sacred thing like how are we do this investment, we can only do it in a way that was going to most benefit the people even if it costs more like that that would be the equation you were doing that the risk to destruction of the environment or if people so the first problem with risk is without even meaning to we only talk about dollars and risk is about losing the human lives is about losing a young kid who could grow up and do something productive and creative and exciting for their community and instead doesn't have a chance to do that thinking an opportunity instead is given a polluted environment. That's risk that's loss, it's loss of a planet dollars are just a means to get the things we want. They are not the ends, but they become so in our risk evaluations, what's the risk to the loss of the planet? I mean, it can't all be about dollars at some point. reimagining risk, ask us to think about more than just profit and profit margins and money itself. It asks us to think about the things that are really sacred, the things that are really important. So I wanted to ask Brendan really, pointedly what's the risk if we don't make these kinds of investments? Because I hear so many people saying, you know, it's too risky for us to do this. But what happens if we don't do these kinds of investments? What happens if there isn't believe in you money or there isn't At this non extractive capital like with the commons does, what then we risk everything. I mean, we risk our future of a livable planet, we risk the lives of all those people who are trapped in communities where the only economic opportunity they have is to try to find a job for someone else, there's no capital available to them to build their own wealth creation, their talents are so often underutilized is too much of an understatement. They are just 99% of the human potential gets lost and wasted, because the resources are kept from them, the resources are kept in just a few hands when our resource is so concentrated in a few people, the risk is just to those people, the idea of the invisible hand when it comes to investment as well, people, if they have investment dollars, they'll invest in factories and give us jobs. And sometimes that happens, sometimes there's positive externalities for the rest of us. But very often there's not I mean, investors, when they look at was it better if I upgrade this factory, say in Michigan, or if I just close it, let it go. And that choice, their financial advisors do the math, they say, you know, we might make a couple more dollars to leave, but they don't, that's not actually true society wide, that the even the dollars will be lost the amount of dollars lost because of us abandoning the economic production production and in in the car industry in Michigan, which I keep using the example was astronomically more, we lost so much dollars, society wise, but the investors, they don't see all the losses of jobs to the 1000s and 1000s of workers, they don't see the losses of potential earnings to the 1000s of children of those workers, those communities that fall into pure blight that happened in Michigan after them the departure of the auto industry, they don't see any of that they just see their own portfolio. And when we allow our economic decisions and investments society wide to be made by people whose portfolio ends where their own bank account ends, we are at extraordinary risk of all the rest of society's potential, whether it's about a clean future about a future where all children have the opportunity to flourish, where communities that have been built have an opportunity to maintain themselves and continue investing in themselves rather than be abandoned. Those risks are when you actually put them on a piece of paper and compare those dollars. It's obvious to almost anyone common sense says there's no way we should be choosing dollars. And yet we do time after time. It's everything we care about really, you know, we the financial equation of saying well, which will make more dollars for my investor, it says take all your other values, all the things what about the children in that community? What about the ones? What about the things that have already built the community relationships that are built around these auto, you know, industry jobs and the history of the Great Migration and the first middle class black jobs that happened in the United States and abandoning this entire? What about the cities that were created in the in this country, just abandoning all those things as making an investment decision, you're supposed to ignore all of those things, all of those values and just decide what's going to make more dollars for my client? It's truly sociopathic, what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to ignore all the impacts on society. I mean, we risk making all the wrong decisions by letting private financial gain be what guides the investments we make in our country for tomorrow. I asked Brendan, during our interview, the question that's underneath the book, what would it look like if the economy loved black people? And I was able to ask this question to everybody I interviewed. And the answers were rich and thoughtful. And I'll tell you my biggest takeaway from asking people that question, and I want you to, if you have a moment, take a second and think about the question, let it sink into your body and a sink into your being. It's just start thinking what would those answers be? Because what I've found is that people have a real vision for what an economy would look like if it loved black people. And this idea that the question just feels too large, or, you know, looming, to be grounded in some way. In fact, has people have really clear tangible grounded ideas of what it would take to make this economy love black people. I find that to be so powerful, because you can't make something real in the world if you can't first envision it. So I love this. So I asked Brendan, what would it look like if the economy love black people? Here's a little snippet of what he said we should think about what would it take to save frontline communities because of their saved and the rest is going to be saved to in our country in the United States? You know, black Americans have been essentially like the frontline people for so long, you know, with Native Americans and getting the treatment that our economy is so often I mean, so many markers at the worst kind of treatment there is so if you made a society which said the worst off would be an okay place to be that sort of veil of ignorance is a starting place a lot look at so I think you would I'd immediately say we can't have anyone who's treated as badly as our country right now has historically and continues to treat black Americans Some extractive investment would have to be gone. Right now our economy is based around privileging those who have assets and making sure they don't lose their assets, that idea that the common sense that risk is about losing money, right that we talked about earlier, that's also embedded in our law, like economic risk is the big one. And our society governs around trying to avoid economic risk purely on the loss of dollars, that would have to be gone, we would have to stop centering pools of capital and the private ownership of capital and start centering people capital would be provided available to people in communities. So if you were a kid growing up, you know, in a mostly black city like Flint, Michigan, rather than saying, my municipality, can you provide me safe drinking water, instead, you'd provide the resources capital will be available to you to go to school to get health care and to start a business, even with your friends to invest in a real justice it to buy your own piece of Ford Motor Company that the workers in that town who helped build that company wouldn't know how to own their own piece of it. And that sounds like a crazy world that is the world that Mondragon in Spain and Emilia Romagna in Northern Italy built where everyone who is a citizen there would have access to the capital to buy a piece of their company, they didn't have to just go to a company and say, Would you hire me? They said, If you don't, I'm gonna start my own company, because my society believes I should have the resources to do that to either hire me on good terms, make me an owner, or I'll do it myself. So the idea of like, what would society look like that's fair to everybody. And thinking of, you know, who has been the historically the worst treated in our economy is one way to look at it. But I think there's another framework now, which is not with the veil of ignorance is with awareness of the real history and who's treated how the framework of reparations of saying let's actively approach like we know who's been treated worse, we the math is really clear, the statistics are too glaringly clear. So let's actively do things to repair for damage done. I just love how the question gets everybody to the clarity that this would be a society that will be fair for everybody. So we're clear. It's not fair right now, right. And that's why I'm so serious about reparative capital. And it brought Brinton and I full circle to reparations, actually, and what we talked about was business ownership. Now, most of the time, there is a framework around reparations, that talks about this single payment, or you know, this big cheque that you're going to collect. And we don't actually even think about reparations, that way, I don't personally even use the word reparations because I know that there are so many ways and pathways around repair and reparations tends to be around what a government could do and should do. But there are so many different things that we need to be doing with repair. Because there is individual work, there is systemic work, there's corporate work, there is work at the government level, there is repair work to happen really everywhere. And so we started talking about business ownership in this frame of reparations. And one of the things that Brendon started talking to me about was this conversation that he had with his business collaborator, Ed Whitfield. So definitely take a look at the season of road repair this year, because this season, has a great episode with Ed Whitfield that Nick Keisha, and Andrew did that I think you're going to absolutely enjoy. All right, so shout out to Ed, because this conversation is a little bit of a pickup of something that he said to Brendan, and we were talking about a thing anyway, goes like this. We're talking about reparations and how specifically, we're not actually talking about this consumer kind of good, right, we're talking about assets that you could work with. And so we're talking about 40 acres and a mule specifically, right. And that Edie had shared that when African Americans were newly freed, and they got together and they decided and determine what they wanted and needed and they said they wanted 40 acres and a mule. They were very aware of it being productive capital, not consumer goods capital, so not just like the single check that you get, but what what they were asking for 40 acres and a mule was about productive capital. And they saw this as essential to getting economic independence. And so our understanding of business ownership and owning the sort of method of production that this is productive capital that will continue to give yield, not just a one time or so off payment. And so we get deep into this conversation, right that what we're looking for and talking about is an equation I have economic power, right? We're talking about changing the way that our society understands or attributes abundance and wealth creation, we're talking fundamentally about that the resources that we need are the resources that continue to create more jobs or more productivity, and not just a one time kind of thing. So we're talking about real economic power, not benevolence, not philanthropy, but real change of power and capital and changing a power structure that holds and operates these capital assets. And so we see that as like it's this linchpin and helping to develop this cooperative economy. And we think that by really giving capital that is productive, that we're able to really get more economic independence. And so we're talking about business as this and capital for those businesses as this real economic power engine that this is not benevolence, this is not philanthropy, we're fundamentally talking about how we change power. And a lot of times folks will hear me say non extractive, and they'll say, Oh, well, this is, you know, this is more like philanthropy, or these are just gifts. And I'm saying No, what I'm asking you to do is fundamentally reimagine how capital and the power structures around capital work. And so in this thread, I said to Brendan, all right, so we are thinking about investment from this reimagined place. Tell me about what it feels like for you to invest in black joy. Hmm, I love the question. I love the question even now. What does it feel like when you get to invest in black joy, because that's what's here for you. That's what's available, right? That when we're talking about changing risk, or when we're talking about an economy that loves black people, or believe in you money, what I'm really saying is, this is an opportunity to invest in black joy. So ask Brendon, what is it like to invest in black joy, and the sweetest, most thoughtful response? Take a listen. I mean, I was a part of the group of workers who started newer windows, which is actually the factory you see pictured behind me and you our Windows was all black and Latinx Americans who started at 100%, who had worked together in a union, it's part of the sole factor, and they came together to start it. And I got to know the workers really well, I'd spent all day you know, it was the project I had worked the most time personally. So I'd spend every day all day in the factory a lot. So I got to know workers really well and became good friends with many. And some of the black workers that were there talked about what it meant to become owners. Now Ricky Macklin is one who, if you were lucky enough to search him on the internet, he was very good at expressing himself. So he's someone who could capture really well, what it meant to be a worker owner, he talked about, he's the story of the elephant. He said, he went to the circus when he was a kid. And he saw the elephant of this tiny little stake in the ground that was holding this giant elephant. And he said, Dad had that, how does that work? How does that little stake, he said, Oh, well, they put the stake on the elephant, still a kid and can't pull it out. And the elephant just learns I'm stuck here. And so it just works, because it really is around their minds. And he said, and that's what it's like growing up poor growing up black. Growing up as a worker in America, we assume we have no power, we think we have to just do what the boss says we have no power. And it's true materially, and it also becomes true psychologically for us. And they fought they fought really hard to take this factory, they fought against the boss who tried to fire them without giving them their severance pay that they're contractually obliged to they fought to then form a cooperative schedule, a lot of taking there wasn't handed to them. But he talked with them what it was like to become an owner and feeling that chain lifted, what it was possible to be, you know, as any said, when he when he told the story, the most recent time he told it, he talked about how he knew his grandkids were watching. And that's what he thought about when he would speak to the camera, because this was you can find him in being interviewed on the internet. And he said, I know that they're watching and I want them to know that there's not that isn't, you're going to feel like there's you have less power than you do. You have to take it. It's not going to be given to you. But the chains they put around your ankles are going to try to be chains around your mind as well. And you're gonna believe you're not capable of things that you are capable of. That was really powerful. And his buddy, whose name was poppin, William Swanson, but he went by pop and supposes because when he showed up at the party, it was start popping. There's an old story, but that's what he went by for many, many years. That was when he was a kid. And one point he got a letter we got a letter in the mail and we were sitting around new arrows after work. We're kind of hanging out it's like five o'clock. I don't know what he was sitting around. And he got a letter and it was written to the owners. It was written to him he realized he suddenly got these chills. He said, Oh my god, I just got it realized. That's me. We've been at that point he'd been you know, we'd have the factory been there for a while but he's still got this. Oh, yeah. Like I'm a I'm an owner and he said it was like you said you know how you can get like, if you're a church Holy Ghost, I just got the owner ghosts like that was like, I guess felt to go through with the owner ghost and we will reference the owner ghosts after that for a long time because that was this joy that he felt. All right, we are at the end of this episode. And I want to thank you for giving this episode a listen and referring it to your friends. And I want to thank Brendan Martin Wow, such an incredible human being thank you so much for giving me such generous time for the book. And for this podcast. I'll tell you one of the things about this particular chapter that Brendan and I did about risk and reimagining risk in the book tends to be one of those chapters that everybody wants to talk to me about. And it's because I think we have just imagine that our ideas of risk are pretty much baked in like this is the foundation of how you think about moving money, or how you think about assessing your risk level inside or doing your due diligence for business that those are pretty much fundamentally baked in, in fact, you may have a checklist, I'm gonna look for this, I'm gonna look for that. And we rarely think about the fact that our assumptions, our understanding of risk is baked in with racial bias, when we're able to see that I think we have a responsibility at that point, to fundamentally rework our understanding of risk. I think that if we're in a place where we want to invest in black and brown communities, it must start with a serious reimagining of risk. And so often I see folks who say we're going to work with marginalized communities, we're going to work with underrepresented communities, we're going to work with bipoc communities, but they never go back and look at their underwriting manuals, they never go back and look at their due diligence protocols. They never go back and look at any of these things, or their credit scoring or any of these things that they're using as a part of the strategy, even though their mandate may be to close the racial wealth gap, or to support communities of color. They don't go back and do this work. And I think there's a fundamental misstep in not doing that work. So the invitation here is for you to start thinking about risk in a different way. Tell your friends tell everybody that there is more that we could do right now, that could be impactful. It could certainly help us create an economy that loves black people. I hope you get the book. I hope you continue to listen to the podcast, because I want to hear from you definitely reach out. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us on the road to repair. Our greatest hope is that this show will have a transformative impact for those of you tuning in the Rhodes repair podcast is produced by Andrew X Nikica young guard and Jessica Norwood with post production support from Andrew X. Music for the show was produced by Andrew x in close collaboration with artists and sound designer Zachary Seth Greer in the luscious vocals and original poetics of Nyima tenement. Shout out to sofa hood for all of the amazing artwork, you can check out more of all of their great work on their websites which you can find links to add the road to repair.com We always love the social media shout outs and you can help this message ripple out to those who might really benefit from it by rating this show and leaving a review on Apple podcasts. And if you feel called to you can make a donation to support the show at WWW dot the road to repair.com Thanks again for tuning in and stay tuned for our next episode. We stand with the land we are far more than a commodity we join with the water bodies are not property. We're reclaiming our shared sovereignty and shaping an economy based on reciprocity, cooperative, accountable grounded justice and ecology. The Empire is toppling who want to be about this prophecy. We've been summoned to the summit. Trust me here for something what is now possible Who are we becoming? The road to repair is sponsored by the guild in one way. The Gil develops community own models of land housing in real estate as a means to build power and self determination in black and other communities of color. Runway envisions a world where black entrepreneurs thrive in a reimagined economy rooted in equity and justice.
